Thursday, September 11, 2008

how can people believe this stuff!

I used to be very conservative; I usually voted Republican. I have shifted quite a bit, but I still think I can be pretty objective. But I am outraged at the lying and manipulation being done by the McCain campaign. It's embarrassing.

I'm trying to teach my daughter about the political process. what do I say to her, when people who claim to be Christians, and who should be setting an example for how we treat others, are committing such horrible acts?


Anonymous said...

Please tell me that you are not seriously "outraged" at bogus political outrage. And if these are what you consider "horrible acts", then how would you describe what happened on 9/11? Can you really not laugh at all the bogus rhetoric and posturing and see through it to focus on the things that really matter? I would hardly consider Washington Post material to be the most objective. C'mon man, you're better than this.

Todd said...

I am outraged, Dale; because I really care about this. It's ridiculous that our next president could be elected because he's better at twisting and manipulating than his opponent, rather than being a better candidate.

I can look past the McCain crap and see what really matters, what concerns me is that a lot of people don't (which seems obvious based on the polls).

And it's not a matter of the Post being objective or not; it's obvious when watching McCain's ads what's going on. Obama's ads go after McCain on policy and issues; McCain's ads are gross distortions and lies about Obama.

I think McCain's camp is doing this because when the conversation is about the things that really matter, people prefer Obama (again, look at the early polls).

I'm not saying Obama is perfect, and that his campaign is squeaky clean; but you only have to watch their ads to see a real difference in tone and focus.

I don't get what 9/11 has to do with it. Sure that was horrible. And I'm not comparing this to 9/11. But I think being dishonest and deceitful in order to get elected is horrible, especially from Christians.

Veritable Reason said...

Dude. Ads and strategies are flying from both sides. They are diversion, at this point, from the real issues. I challenge you to look behind the curtain. Look for at the content of the substance below....on both sides.

Then blog on that.

Do the work.

I'll respect you way more for that, than for the liberal press regurge on the silly season antics. I expect more from you, regardless of the position you take.

I expect you to look for the veritable reason in this election.

Josh said...

so veritable reason...who or what is behind the curtain? you seem to know already, so help us out here?

i totally agree that both sides are posturing, using rhetoric, and never going to accomplish all that they talk about...but still, the tones of the two front runners, and their running mates have been quite different, and while that may not be a close examination of their policies, their attitudes and tones also help to illuminate the way they will lead and the way they will talk about the policies which they espouse.

after watching the RNC, i was extremely dissatisfied with the tone (especially guliani) and i think Todd is rightly pointing out the tactics of McCain's crew, b/c they indicate the way he will make policies and lead the nation.

of course there is a lot of political rhetoric being slung, but there are some differences in the slinging in my opinion...

Anonymous said...

First of all, if you are trying to teach your daughter about the political process, then teach her that this IS part of the political process. Parties and candidates from all sides of the line do things to play up their strengths and down their weaknesses and use strategies to attack their opponents where they are vulnerable. Surely this is not something new to you, is it? It can’t be helped that you are more intelligent than the bulk of the population and can see through enough to be able to make an informed decision. I should think it equally ridiculous that our next president could be chosen simply because he is a better speaker, and a minority, and better-looking, and younger, and who is basically “anybody but someone associated with Bush”. But exactly what is his record? What has he done that merits his status as “the better candidate”?
Feel free to claim that McCain’s ads are distortions of the truth, but I would be wary about calling them lies. He and his organizers can’t help but jump on the “lipstick on a pig” and “old fish” comments because they were huge gaffes. I know well enough that he wasn’t calling Palin a pig. But for someone of supposedly remarkable leadership credentials, how could he not recognize the imagery of that illustration and how it would be used? If these people listened to me, Obama would have gotten up the next day and apologized and admitted to a brainfart and defused the whole issue. And McCain would have gotten up the next day and simply confirmed that he knows he wasn’t calling her a pig. And both would have said, “let’s move on and talk about the issues.” But that didn’t happen. Obama can’t see what buffoonery the remark was and McCain is simply playing politics with it.
My reference to 9/11 was simply that you used the word “horrible”. And on a day when we are remembering something that can truly be called horrible, it seems somewhat hyperbolic to label someone’s political ads in the same light.
As far as “things that really matter”, what exactly has he demonstrated that gives him superiority in the “things that really matter”? Sure, he sounds great and full of promise, but look back at his record and biography and show me why I should believe he is capable of anything.
Furthermore, I was disingenuous with you the other day when you asked me if abortion was a make or break issue. Given 2 candidates vying for the same office, I would have to say that it is. Your blog a few days ago has a prayer at the DNC that says, “Father, will you restore our moral standing in the world.” The abortion issue IS the quintessential moral issue of our lifetime. You said that you didn’t think that we would ever be able to defeat it. So in some sense you have given up and moved on to other issues. The truth is that the main reason we haven’t conquered this issue is because of the makeup of the Supreme Court. And with 1-2 seats likely to open up in the next term, whoever is president will have the opportunity to either solidify for generations to come our current position or potentially turn the tide in our favor. Even if things stayed the same in the courts, the abortion issue would likely remain in its current steady state. But what happens if Obama is elected? He has pledged to pass the Freedom of Choice Act. This is fully supported by NARAL and Planned Parenthood and would in effect put into federal statute the provisions in Roe v. Wade. This would likely eliminate waiting periods, parental notification/consent, and bans on partial-birth abortions. In other words, there would likely be even more abortions than there are now. And it would make any reversal in this area all but impossible simply because of the congressional numbers required to overturn it and even more unlikely to be altered by the courts. Teach your daughter THAT.
There are a lot of issues that come up in every election. And the bulk of them are important to everyday life, such as fiscal responsibility, national security, environmental protection, foreign trade, etc. But none of these has any eternal ramifications. I’m looking at what I think is right in light of eternity. No, this isn’t going to condemn anyone to hell or get anyone into heaven. But we will have to give an accounting of our lives before the throne. And in this regard it is a no-brainer.
If the prayer was meant to mean that we restore our moral standing as the world views morals, then by all means, support Obama. But if it means that we restore our moral standing in the world in line with God’s Word, I don’t see how anyone could support someone who supports and advances the killing of unborn children.
You know I love you like a brother and still will regardless of electoral outcome. But I would trade all the many Cowboy victories over the Redskins in order to conquer abortion.
p.s. What are you doing up at 4:30?

Anonymous said...

If the "attitudes and tones" of the campaigns help to "illuminate the way they will lead", then how much does one's record of decision-making (i.e. whose teaching do we choose to follow, who do we associate with, what choices have we made) do to illuminate the way they will lead?

Veritable Reason said...

Josh, you said, "who or what is behind the curtain? you seem to know already, so help us out here?"

Respectfully, dude, you miss my point.

1) It's not my blog.

2) It's not my intent to suggest to you HOW to think....only that you do it. Refer back to line 7 of my post.

Do the work.

Don't settle for the superficial.

Think. Yes, it's more time consuming and takes more effort than spouting the media snippets, but it's the responsibility of smart people to do it.

Todd is smarter than what he's posting. Therefore, I expect more.

...and you seem intelligent in your reply, so I'll include you in my challenge. (snerk)

You'll understand it and believe it much better, if you take the time to do the thinking yourself, instead of asking others to feed it to you.

Todd said...

veritable reason,

do I know you? you seem to know me...(although I'm not as smart as you seem to think I am! :-)

Not sure what work you want me to do...I have put a lot of time into this--reading from many sources, watching both conventions, thinking, praying, discussing... Just because I haven't chronicled all my thoughts in the process doesn't mean I haven't put the work into it.

I was just commenting on what I'm seeing in the campaigns these days, not on the big picture of the candidates and their platforms.

I have already made up my mind about this election. I have great friends on both sides of this election--I realize those of us who have decided are not going to change our minds; so I don't feel the need to convince anyone about it.

If you want to discuss issues we can do that, but I cannot just write off the attacks and lies as harmless.

Dale--I hear you on abortion. I didn't say I've given up on it...but it's clear to me that it is not something we can change through the legal process, and even if we could make it illegal, would it stop abortions from happening?

I fear that both sides are so polarized, that nothing gets done. I believe there are very few people who think abortion is a good thing. Most pro-choice people are in favor of finding ways to reduce abortion.

what if both sides could work together to address the moral, economic, educational issues that factor into the problem; and work to reduce abortions?

I hear over and over, "that's not good enough. They must be stopped." But why not do what we can, while we can, rather than stand with our arms crossed and refuse to work with others who have a different perspective.

Read these 2 pieces from Tony Campolo:

there is plenty more to say; but I have to get back to work!

Anonymous said...

I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that this cannot be corrected through the legal system. I read both articles and certainly applaud the efforts at reduction. I'm not sure I buy that 60% are economically driven. I know that in Texas, if you are pregnant, you automatically qualify for medicaid. I am convinced that the sexual immorality and permissiveness that is growing as we become a more secular culture is primarily responsible. But you are blind if you think that Planned Parenthood has any interest in reducing the number of abortions. This is big business, baby!
I'm not saying that these efforts won't help, but to simply foster and support a growing secular society seems antithetical.
We will never eliminate all abortions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And it certainly means that we shouldn't legislate things that will result in increased numbers as the Freedom of Choice Act will.

You obviously can't list all the reasons you think Obama is the man, but just tell me one thing in his background or explain what consistent record of action/decision-making in his life leads you to conclude he is the man for the job.

Check out: - 191k -

Aside from the name-calling, it at least begs the question about just what exactly he has done that has people so enamored.

Veritable Reason said...

Todd, I'm sure you've thought through the issues. That's why a post about outrage at the flying frack from the campaign trail is catching flack from me. It's tabloid fodder. Superficial. Diversion from the real issues. A waste of good internet real estate to re-print it.

You know why you believe in your candidate. Why not use your space to teach others why they should think as you do about this election? Convert us to your way of thinking. Teach me....but not from the gossip columns, please.

1Jo 3:7
"So, my dear children, don't let anyone divert you from the truth. It's the person who acts right who is right, just as we see it lived out in our righteous Messiah."

Show me your righteous candidate.

...and yes...we've met... but my words carry greater weight here, perhaps, as the anonymous Veritable Reason.

P3T3RK3Y5 said...

hey Todd. thanks man.

Seems the Ends Justifies the Means.

It does when we went to Iraq.
It does when we torture.
It does when we "spread democracy".
& It does to win elections.

its a sick sick spectacle for the rest of the world to watch. and its only effective on Americans. everyone else laughs us. and our credibility sinks still lower.